Here are various pastes about whom I've been calling Hyacinth since childhood. I knew even then, she was "keeping up appearances", but not until after a prolongued abuse through my 30s did I start to get, in my 40s, what that really means, how far that goes, how fucked up narcissists are, and how much they'll fuck you up, how much it's a total pretence veneer, over a total selfish lack of empathy. She has the psychopathic stare. Heed the warning flags. Here first follows the latest paste (from mistral llm) from after hitting upon the idea it may have been Munchausen-By-Proxy (after hearing the term on JRE #2380 "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laLx9PryjFE") as well as covert/community narcissism, as I try to figure out what that was all about (after years of asking in futility why they did what they did (that i've since titled "that fucking house", for the whole blackmail, slavery, torture and defrauding episode.)) --------------------- munchausen by proxy11:12amMunchausen by Proxy (MBP)—also called Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another (FDIA) in the DSM-5—is a severe form of abuse where a caregiver (often a parent) fabricates, exaggerates, or induces illness in a dependent (e.g., a child, elderly person, or disabled individual) to gain attention, sympathy, or control from medical professionals or others. Unlike typical medical neglect or abuse, the perpetrator’s primary motive is psychological gratification (e.g., being seen as a "heroic" caregiver) rather than material gain. This makes it uniquely insidious and hard to detect. Key Features of MBP/FDIA 1. Behavior Patterns Fabricating symptoms: Lying about symptoms (e.g., seizures, allergies, chronic pain). Tampering with medical tests (e.g., contaminating urine samples). Inducing illness: Poisoning (e.g., salt, laxatives, insulin). Suffocating, infecting wounds, or withholding food/medication. Medical shopping: Seeking multiple opinions, hospitals, or doctors to avoid detection. Demanding invasive tests/procedures (e.g., surgeries, catheterizations). 2. Perpetrator Traits Often charming, knowledgeable about medicine (may have healthcare experience). Overly attentive in medical settings but indifferent or hostile when not observed. Resistant to good news (e.g., dismisses negative test results, insists the child is sicker). History of similar behavior (e.g., other children/pets with unexplained illnesses). 3. Victim Profile Children < 6 years old are most common (but can affect any dependent). Symptoms improve in the caregiver’s absence (e.g., in hospital without the parent). Unusual or contradictory medical history (e.g., rare conditions, recurrent "mystery" illnesses). Why It’s Dangerous Physical harm: Victims may suffer permanent injury, disability, or death (mortality rates are estimated at 6–10% in severe cases). Psychological trauma: Long-term anxiety, PTSD, or medical phobias. Systemic failure: Doctors may misdiagnose, perform unnecessary treatments, or accuse the victim of malingering. How to Identify MBP/FDIA Red Flags for Professionals/Family CategoryWarning SignsMedical HistoryFrequent hospitalizations, "zebra" diagnoses, symptoms only when caregiver is present.Caregiver BehaviorOverly dramatic, enjoys medical attention, resists second opinions.Victim CluesChild seems fearful of caregiver, symptoms disappear in hospital.EvidenceInconsistent lab results, hidden cameras/catch tampering (e.g., salt in IV lines). Differential Diagnosis Rule out: Actual medical conditions (e.g., mitochondrial disorders, autoimmune diseases). Malingering (fabrication for external reward, like money). Somatic symptom disorder (caregiver’s genuine but exaggerated anxiety). What to Do If You Suspect MBP Document everything: Medical records, timelines, caregiver interactions. Note discrepancies (e.g., symptoms vs. test results). Separate the victim and caregiver: Hospitalize the child and restrict the caregiver’s access (MBP symptoms often resolve when the abuser is absent). Report to authorities: Mandated reporters (doctors, teachers) must involve child protective services or adult protective services. In many countries, this is legally required (e.g., U.S. state laws, UK’s Children Act 1989). Avoid confrontation: Accusing the caregiver directly may lead to escalation (e.g., moving the victim, falsifying worse symptoms). Legal/medical intervention: Courts may order supervised visitation or termination of parental rights in extreme cases. Challenges in Prosecution Hard to prove: Perpetrators are often skilled at manipulation and may have medical knowledge. Victims may defend the abuser: Due to trauma bonds or fear. Legal standards: Requires clear evidence of intent (e.g., hidden camera footage, toxicology reports). Famous Cases CaseDetailsOutcomeMarybeth TinningU.S. mother; 9 children died of "SIDS" (later convicted of smothering).Life in prison.Gypsy Rose BlanchardMother (Dee Dee) fabricated illnesses; daughter conspired to kill her.Mother murdered; daughter served prison time.Kathleen FolbiggAustralian mother; convicted of killing 4 children (later debated as MBP).Initially convicted; later pardoned (2023). Psychological Theories Behind MBP Narcissistic supply: The caregiver craves praise, control, or pity. **Munchausen’s by proxy as a variant of factitious disorder (DSM-5). Trauma repetition: Some perpetrators were abused or neglected as children. Controversies & Ethical Dilemmas False accusations: Misdiagnosing MBP can destroy families (e.g., parents wrongly accused of harming their child). Cultural biases: Some behaviors (e.g., over-medicalizing children) may be normalized in certain communities. Media sensationalism: High-profile cases (e.g., The Act on Hulu) can stigmatize rare illnesses or lead to witch hunts. Key Takeaways MBP is abuse, not a "harmless cry for help." Early intervention saves lives—but requires systemic coordination (medical, legal, social services). Support for victims: Long-term therapy is critical (e.g., trauma-focused CBT). Resources Books: Sickened by Julie Gregory (memoir of MBP survival). Playing Sick? by Marc D. Feldman (clinical guide). Organizations: Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline (U.S.). NSPCC (UK). Final Thought MBP exploits the trust we place in caregivers—making it one of the most betrayal-laden forms of abuse. If you’re dealing with a suspected case, trust patterns over single incidents, and prioritize the victim’s safety above all. Would you like help drafting a report or finding support groups for victims/families?11:12amas relates to narcissism and dark tetrad11:14amMunchausen by Proxy (MBP/FDIA) shares deep psychological overlaps with narcissistic personality traits and the Dark Tetrad (narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism). While not all MBP perpetrators fit these profiles, the behaviors often align with malignant narcissism and dark personality traits. Here’s how they intersect: 1. Narcissistic Traits in MBP MBP perpetrators frequently exhibit pathological narcissism, particularly: Grandiosity: See themselves as exceptional caregivers (e.g., "No one else can care for my child like I can"). Crave admiration from medical staff (e.g., "The doctors always say I’m so dedicated"). Lack of empathy: Indifference to the victim’s suffering—may even enjoy the dramatic role of a grieving parent. Rationalize abuse as "necessary" (e.g., "The doctors wouldn’t listen unless I made it worse"). Fragile self-esteem: Panics when exposed—may escalate abuse or flee with the victim to avoid shame. Gaslights others (e.g., "You’re just jealous of my bond with my child"). Key link: MBP provides narcissistic supply—the perpetrator’s identity depends on being seen as heroic or tragic. 2. The Dark Tetrad Connection The Dark Tetrad (a psychological framework for "dark" personality traits) explains the manipulative, exploitative, and cruel aspects of MBP: TraitHow It Manifests in MBPExampleNarcissismNeeds constant validation; sees the victim as an extension of themselves.Posts dramatic Facebook updates about the child’s "brave battle."MachiavellianismCalculating, strategic deception to maintain control.Forges medical records; researches symptoms to fool doctors.PsychopathyLack of remorse; views the victim as a tool for their needs.Smothers a child to induce seizures, then cries in the ER.SadismEnjoys the power over the victim’s suffering (not always conscious).Secretly smiles when the child is in pain, then plays the "devastated" parent. Why this matters: MBP isn’t just "crying for help"—it’s often a deliberate, predatory act by someone with dark triad/tetrad traits. 3. Malignant Narcissism & MBP Malignant narcissism (a toxic blend of narcissism + antisocial traits) is especially relevant: Paranoia: May accuse others of conspiring against them (e.g., "The doctors are trying to take my child!"). Vindictiveness: If caught, they might punish the victim (e.g., "You told on me? Now you’ll really suffer"). Triangulation: Pits professionals/family against each other (e.g., "Dr. A believes me, but Dr. B is incompetent"). Case example: A mother with malignant narcissism might: Poison her child to get sympathy. Sue the hospital when they suspect abuse. Play the victim on social media to rally support. 4. Overlaps with Factitious Disorder (FD) Factitious Disorder (imposed on self): The person fakes illness in themselves (e.g., injecting feces to cause infections). MBP/FDIA: The person projects their need for attention onto a victim. Key difference: FD is often self-destructive but not inherently abusive. MBP is abuse disguised as care—a Dark Tetrad behavior. 5. Why Dark Tetrad Individuals Are Drawn to MBP Power/Control: The victim is completely dependent, making them the "perfect" target. Social Reinforcement: Hospitals, support groups, and online communities reward the caregiver’s performance. Lack of Consequences: Dark Tetrad individuals exploit systemic trust in parents/doctors. Thrill of Deception: Outsmarting medical professionals provides a Machiavellian "high." 6. Diagnostic Challenges MBP perpetrators are often charming and persuasive—they can manipulate therapists, social workers, and even judges. They may have comorbid disorders: Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD): Extreme fear of abandonment → fabricates crises to keep the victim dependent. Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD): Lies and abuses without guilt. They rarely admit to MBP—instead, they double down (e.g., "I’d never hurt my child! You’re the monster!"). 7. Treatment & Intervention Perpetrators: Rarely seek help voluntarily—court-ordered therapy is often needed. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) may help, but only if they admit to the abuse (which is rare). No known "cure"—recidivism is high if they regain access to victims. Victims: Trauma therapy (e.g., EMDR, play therapy for children). Long-term medical monitoring (some victims develop real health issues from chronic abuse). 8. Legal & Ethical Implications MBP is child abuse, but proving it is difficult: Lack of physical evidence (e.g., smothering leaves no marks). Perpetrators are often "model parents" in public. Courts may require: Covert surveillance (e.g., hospital cameras catching tampering). Expert testimony from psychologists familiar with Dark Tetrad traits. Controversy: Some argue MBP should be classified as a mental illness (reducing culpability). Others insist it’s premeditated abuse (demanding criminal charges). 9. Case Study: Dark Tetrad in Action Example: A father with narcissistic and psychopathic traits: Step 1 (Narcissism): Needs to be seen as a "devoted dad." Step 2 (Machiavellianism): Researches rare diseases, then coaches his son to fake symptoms. Step 3 (Psychopathy): When the son resists, he withholds insulin (son has diabetes) to "prove" the illness is real. Step 4 (Sadism): Enjoys the power over the son’s life/death; brags to friends about "saving" him. Outcome: Son nearly dies; father is caught on camera injecting air into the boy’s IV. Father shows no remorse, instead sues the hospital for "defamation." 10. How to Protect Victims For professionals: Trust patterns, not appearances (MBP perpetrators are often likable). Separate the victim from the caregiver (symptoms often vanish when the abuser is absent). For families: Document everything (e.g., videos, medical records). Limit the perpetrator’s access to the victim’s care. For society: Educate medical staff on MBP red flags. Advocate for stricter legal consequences (MBP is often treated as a mental health issue rather than abuse). Key Takeaways MBP is not just a "cry for help"—it’s often a calculated, Dark Tetrad-driven abuse tactic. Narcissistic supply (attention, pity, control) is the primary motivator. Perpetrators rarely change without external intervention (e.g., legal consequences). Victims need lifelong support—the trauma is profound and complex. Further Reading Books: The Manipulative Person by Donna Andersen (on Dark Triad relationships). Without Conscience by Robert Hare (on psychopathy). Research: Feldman, M.D. (2004). Playing Sick?: Untangling the Web of Munchausen Syndrome, Munchausen by Proxy, Malingering, and Factitious Disorder. Jonason, P.K. et al. (2013). The Dark Triad and normal personality traits. Final Thought MBP is where narcissistic grandiosity meets Machiavellian cunning—a perfect storm of dark personality traits. Recognizing this can help protect victims and hold perpetrators accountable. Would you like help analyzing a specific case or drafting a safety plan?11:14amespecially as relates to covert narcissism, and community narcissism. 11:22amMunchausen by Proxy (MBP/FDIA) through the lens of covert narcissism and community narcissism reveals how these subtler, more insidious forms of narcissism enable the abuse to persist—often under the guise of selflessness, martyrdom, or communal concern. Here’s how these dynamics play out: 1. Covert Narcissism in MBP Covert (or "vulnerable") narcissists lack the overt grandiosity of classic narcissism but share the same core entitlement, lack of empathy, and need for control. In MBP, this manifests in deceptive, victimized, and hyper-dependent behaviors: Key Traits in MBP Perpetrators TraitHow It Appears in MBPExampleSelf-VictimizationPortrays themselves as long-suffering, misunderstood heroes."No one believes how hard this is for me."Passive-Aggressive ControlUses the victim’s illness to manipulate others (e.g., guilt-tripping family members)."If you loved me, you’d help me take care of [child]—they’re so sick."Hypersensitivity to CriticismReacts with rage or collapse if questioned (e.g., "How dare you accuse me?!").Cries hysterically when a doctor suggests a second opinion.MartyrdomSacrifices the victim’s well-being to feed their own need for sympathy.Refuses respite care: "I have to do this alone—no one else cares enough."Indirect GrandiosityDoesn’t brag openly but implies superiority (e.g., "I’m the only one who truly understands").Posts vague, dramatic social media updates: "Some people just don’t get our struggle."TriangulationTurns others against the victim or skeptics (e.g., "The doctors are jealous of our bond").Tells family: "The nurses think I’m ‘overreacting’—but they don’t see what I do!" Why Covert Narcissism Is Dangerous in MBP Harder to detect: They appear humble, anxious, or depressed, not arrogant. Exploits sympathy: Communities rally around the "poor, exhausted caregiver." Gaslighting: Convinces others (and themselves) that their abuse is love. "I had to [fabricate symptoms]—otherwise, no one would take it seriously!" Victim Blaming: If the child resists or recovers, the narcissist may punish them ("After all I’ve done for you!"). Case Example: A covert narcissistic mother might: Starve her child to keep them frail, then post fundraisers for "medical expenses." Sabotage the child’s improvement (e.g., hiding medication) to maintain the "sick" role. Play the victim when confronted: "I’m just a mom trying her best! You’re tearing our family apart!" 2. Community Narcissism & MBP Community narcissism refers to individuals who derive narcissistic supply from group dynamics—being the "best" parent, the most devoted caregiver, or the center of a support network. In MBP, this becomes a systemic enabler of abuse: How Community Narcissism Fuels MBP Social Reinforcement: The perpetrator craves admiration from communities (e.g., parent groups, churches, online forums). Example: A mother joins rare disease support groups, not for help, but to be the most "tragic" case. Moral Grandstanding: Uses the victim’s illness to signal virtue (e.g., "I’d do anything for my child—unlike some parents!"). Groupthink Protection: Communities shield the abuser because they’ve invested in the narrative (e.g., "She’s a saint! How could she hurt her kid?"). Competitive Suffering: One-ups other parents: "Your kid’s allergy? That’s nothing—my child has seven life-threatening conditions." Cult-like Dynamics: Isolates the victim from outside perspectives (e.g., homeschooling, restricting visits). Demands loyalty from friends/family: "If you really cared, you’d believe me." Red Flags in Communities BehaviorWarning SignMonopolizing support groupsDominates conversations; shuts down questions.Exploiting communal resourcesDrains charity funds, volunteer time, or emotional labor.Smearing skepticsLabels doctors/family who question them as "cold," "ignorant," or "abusive."Creating a "cult" of believersSurrounds themselves with enablers who validate their story. Example: A father with community narcissism might: Convince a church group that his child is dying (when they’re not). Use the child’s "illness" to fundraise for himself (e.g., "Donate to our GoFundMe so I can quit my job and care for them full-time!"). Attack anyone who doubts him: "Only a monster would question a grieving father!" 3. The Perfect Storm: Covert + Community Narcissism in MBP When these two forms combine, MBP becomes nearly untouchable: The Perpetrator: Covert: Appears fragile, self-sacrificing, and above suspicion. Community-Focused: Weapons the group’s trust against the victim. The Community: Enables the abuse by rewarding the perpetrator’s performance. Punishes whistleblowers (e.g., "How could you accuse her? She’s suffered so much!"). The Victim: Trapped—speaking out risks abandonment by the community (who believe the narcissist). Gaslit into doubting their own reality: "Mom says I’m sick. The church says I’m sick. Am I crazy?" Real-World Example: Gypsy Rose Blanchard’s case: Her mother, Dee Dee, exhibited covert narcissism (playing the doting, exhausted mom). The community reinforced the abuse (neighbors, doctors, and online groups praised Dee Dee’s "dedication"). Gypsy Rose had to conspire to kill her mother to escape—because no one believed her. 4. How Communities Unwittingly Enable MBP Medical Systems: Doctors may overlook red flags because the perpetrator is "so nice" or "clearly devoted." Hospitals fear lawsuits if they accuse a parent wrongly. Social Media: Facebook groups, crowdfunding platforms become narcissistic supply sources. Example: A mother livestreams her child’s "seizures" for donations, but the seizures stop when the camera is off. Religious/Close-Knit Groups: Faith-based communities may prioritize "family unity" over child safety. Example: A pastor dismisses concerns: "We must trust this mother’s love—judgment is God’s alone." Legal Systems: Family courts may side with the abuser if they appear more "stable" than the accuser. 5. Breaking the Cycle: How to Respond For Individuals Trust behavior, not appearances: Covert narcissists seem harmless—watch for patterns of control, contradictions, and victimhood. Document everything: Save texts, medical records, videos (e.g., the child acting healthy when the perpetrator is absent). Avoid direct confrontation: Covert narcissists escalate when exposed—work through authorities (CPS, police). For Communities Question "too perfect" narratives: Why does this parent reject all good news about the child’s health? Why do they resist independent evaluations? Protect the victim’s autonomy: Insist on private medical exams (without the perpetrator present). Limit financial/emotional support until the child’s safety is verified. Educate leaders: Train pastors, teachers, and group admins on MBP red flags. For Professionals Use the "Separation Test": If the child’s symptoms improve when the caregiver is absent, MBP is likely. Involve neutral third parties: Mandated reporters (teachers, doctors) must override community pressure. Legal strategies: Court-ordered supervision (e.g., the perpetrator can only visit the child with a witness). 6. The Aftermath: When the Truth Comes Out The Perpetrator: Plays the victim: "I’m being persecuted!" May find a new victim (e.g., another child, a vulnerable adult). The Community: Cognitive dissonance: Struggles to reconcile the "saint" with the abuser. Splitting: Some double down ("This is a witch hunt!"); others feel betrayed and guilty. The Victim: Complex trauma: Struggles with identity, trust, and guilt ("Was I really sick?"). Needs therapy to rebuild reality after years of gaslighting. 7. Key Takeaways Covert narcissists in MBP: Hide behind martyrdom—their abuse is invisible until it’s undeniable. Exploit empathy to silence doubt. Community narcissism: Turns groups into accomplices by rewarding the abuser’s performance. Isolates the victim by controlling the narrative. Intervention requires: External authority (CPS, courts) to override community bias. Long-term support for the victim (therapy, legal protection). Further Reading Books: Becoming the Narcissist’s Nightmare by Shahida Arabi (on covert narcissism). The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker (on recognizing predatory behavior). Research: Malkin, C. (2015). Rethinking Narcissism (on covert vs. overt narcissism). Feldman, M.D. (2004). Playing Sick? (on MBP and deception). Final Warning MBP thrives in echo chambers of sympathy. The more a community rewards the perpetrator’s story, the harder it is to stop the abuse. If you suspect MBP: Do not engage the narcissist directly—they will manipulate or destroy evidence. Focus on the victim’s safety—even if it means going against the group. Would you like help crafting a safety plan for a specific situation or scripts for confronting enablers? ----------------------------- ----------------------------- ----------------------------- ----------------------------- -----------------------------