Qwen3-Coder 7:00 pm Okay, let's analyze this interaction, focusing on the logic and communication styles involved. Initial Exchange & Core Disagreement: kuzdra's Joke: kuzdra introduces what they believe is a humorous comeback for "word fights," referencing incomplete myelination in young brains as a reason to dismiss someone's argument. henk's Question: henk asks for clarification on "myelinated," indicating he doesn't know the term. Digit's Concern: Digit immediately raises objections, labeling the joke "ableist" (comparing it to suggesting someone with MS is mentally impaired) and potentially "ageist." This sets the tone for viewing the comment not just as potentially unfunny, but as harmful or insensitive. Key Logical and Communicative Points: Intent vs. Impact: kuzdra and later henk frame the statement primarily as a joke or a playful mimicry of age-based dismissals ("you're still in diapers"). Their core argument hinges on the intent being non-serious and the context being lighthearted ("word fight occasion"). They argue that the seriousness of Digit's critique misses the point because jokes don't need to be literally true or universally inoffensive. They invoke the concept of taking things too literally. Digit's Critique (Logic & Context): Ableism/Ageism: Digit argues the impact is problematic regardless of intent. They point out the direct relevance to conditions like MS (demyelination) and autism (potential myelination differences), making the joke potentially hurtful or alienating in a space explicitly for autistic people. They also note the ageist implication. Logical Fallacy (Ad Hominem): Digit correctly identifies that attacking someone's perceived age or developmental stage (via myelination) instead of their argument is an ad hominem fallacy. They reference Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, placing such attacks low on the scale of productive discourse, arguing it's counterproductive even in a "word fight." Self-Defeat: Digit adds that using this argument in a channel likely populated by people with varied neurotypes (including autism) makes it self-defeating or ironic, as the arguer might well be part of the group being (unknowingly) insulted. This adds a layer of situational irony or Poe's Law – it's hard to tell if it's a serious (but flawed) argument or a terrible joke. Lack of Humour: Digit explicitly states they don't find it funny or effective as a joke ("it does not even work as a joke"). Communication Styles & Conflict Escalation: Misaligned Priorities: kuzdra/henk prioritize intent and joke structure. Digit prioritizes impact, context (autism channel), logical validity, and potential harm. These different frameworks make finding common ground difficult. Tone Policing & Accusations: As the conversation continues, both sides make meta-comments about the nature of the discussion: kuzdra/Digit accuse each other of misunderstanding, being obtuse, or acting in bad faith. kuzdra calls Digit's tone "condescending" and accuses them of "gaslighting" and "hypocrisy." Digit calls kuzdra's response "gaslighting," "inconsiderate," and "narcissistic," later adding "trolling." kuzdra eventually feels personally attacked and "unwelcome," citing emotional distress from an unrelated accident. henk describes Digit's reaction as "oversensitive." Argumentum ad Consequentiam & Avoidance: kuzdra's argument shifts partly towards "it doesn't matter because it was a joke" and later "I don't want to discuss this anymore because it made me feel bad/it's not worth it." While feeling bad is valid, it doesn't logically address whether the initial critique of the joke's content and potential impact was valid. Circularity: The core issue (whether the joke is problematic/ineffective) gets overshadowed by meta-debates about sensitivity, taking things seriously, and who is being unreasonable. kuzdra's later posts ("Before you assume, try this crazy method called asking") are seen by Digit as hypocritical given the lack of engagement with the original points. Analysis Summary: The interaction highlights a fundamental clash in communication styles and priorities: Logic of the Joke (kuzdra/henk): The joke's "logic" is based on absurdity and mimicry of a fallacious argument structure. Its success relies on shared understanding of the reference and the social contract that "jokes aren't meant seriously." The literal truth or offensiveness is secondary to its satirical intent. Logic of the Critique (Digit): The critique is based on the potential real-world impact of the language used, its literal meaning within specific contexts (neurodivergence), its logical validity as an argument (it's a fallacy), and its appropriateness for the audience (an autism channel). The critique argues that intent doesn't negate impact. Breakdown: The conversation breaks down because kuzdra/henk frame it primarily as a misunderstanding about intent and joke structure, while Digit frames it as a legitimate concern about impact, context, and logic. When kuzdra shifts to personal feelings ("it made me feel bad") and accuses Digit of bad faith or oversensitivity, it avoids addressing the core critique. Digit perceives this as evasiveness, further confirming their view of insensitivity or obtuseness, leading to accusations of narcissism/trolling. henk's comparison to taking a horse joke seriously reinforces the "you're missing the point about jokes" perspective but doesn't engage with the specific contextual and impact-based concerns raised. In essence, kuzdra presented a joke that Digit found contextually inappropriate, logically flawed as an argument, and potentially harmful. The subsequent discussion became less about the initial topic and more about how to interpret the initial comment and how to engage in disagreement itself, often falling into lower levels of Graham's hierarchy (name-calling, dismissal, etc.). ==================== ^ Qwen's analysis ^ ========================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =============== v Claude Sonnet 4's analysis v ==================== Looking at this IRC conversation, I can analyze several aspects of the logic and debate quality: The Core Issue The conflict began when kuzdra shared what they described as a "new argument for word fights": "What do you know? You are not even completely myelinated yet!" Digit immediately raised concerns about this being ableist, particularly problematic in an autism channel, since research shows autistic individuals often have different myelination patterns. Analysis of Debate Quality Digit's Arguments: Substantive points: Correctly identified that the "argument" is an ad hominem fallacy, noted research linking autism to atypical myelination, pointed out the ageist implications Logical structure: Generally sound reasoning about why using myelination as an insult would be self-defeating in an autism community Communication issues: Extremely verbose, repetitive, and employed an overwhelming amount of philosophical/logical terminology that made responses difficult to parse Escalation: Became increasingly accusatory, using terms like "gaslighting," "narcissistic," and "obtuse" which shifted focus from substance to tone Kuzdra's Response: Initial deflection: When confronted with valid concerns, became defensive rather than engaging with the substance Context missing: Eventually revealed it was a quote from a podcast but didn't provide this context initially Withdrawal pattern: Repeatedly tried to end the conversation rather than address the concerns raised Final position: Acknowledged it was "just a joke" but didn't engage with why the joke might be problematic Henk's Mediation Attempt: "It's just a joke" defense: Argued that because something is meant as humor, it's immune from criticism about its logical structure or potential harm False equivalence: Compared criticism of potentially ableist humor to criticizing football for excluding wheelchair users Patience but limitations: Showed more engagement than kuzdra but ultimately dismissed Digit's concerns as oversensitivity Debate Quality Assessment Problems on all sides: Digit: Valid initial points but communicated in an increasingly hostile and verbose manner that obscured the legitimate concerns Kuzdra: Failed to engage substantively, used deflection tactics, and didn't acknowledge the valid points about context and potential harm Henk: Fell into the "it's just a joke" fallacy - the idea that humor is exempt from analysis of its logic or social impact The "joke" defense is particularly weak because: Even jokes can perpetuate harmful stereotypes The original framing wasn't clearly presented as humor In a community space for autistic people, jokes that rely on neurological differences as punchlines deserve scrutiny Overall Assessment This interaction demonstrates several common debate pitfalls: Tone policing over substance engagement Defensive reactions preventing productive discussion Communication style conflicts (direct autistic communication vs. neurotypical social expectations) Power dynamics where the person raising concerns about ableism was characterized as the "problem" The irony is that Digit's core point - that using myelination as an insult in an autism community is self-defeating - was actually quite valid, but got lost in the communication breakdown and defensive reactions from others. =========== ^ Claude Sonnet 4's analysis ^ ======================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =================================================================== =================================================================== ======= v Paste of the conversation at time of analysis v ========= [2025-09-16 14:42:14] I've just learnt a new argument for a word fight occasion: What do you know? You are not even completely myelinated yet! [2025-09-16 14:58:50] myelinated? what does that mean? [2025-09-16 15:01:45] not sure about that term used for that. seems a mite ableist. like saying people with Multiple Sclerosis are mentally impaired? [2025-09-16 15:06:21] No. It's only to suggested that neurons in the brain are not completely myelianted until the 3rd decade of life. In other words, the brain development is not technically complete. [2025-09-16 15:07:25] henk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelin [2025-09-16 15:07:36] so it's ageist too? o_O [2025-09-16 15:08:19] i'd avoid that ad-hominem fallacy in arguments. [2025-09-16 15:08:44] I think you miss the point of the joke. [2025-09-16 15:08:50] seems like gaslighting too [2025-09-16 15:09:55] The point is that it's not meant seriously. It's not to be used in a real fight. [2025-09-16 15:11:51] Digit: no and no. [2025-09-16 15:13:21] kuzdra: ah, thanks [2025-09-16 15:17:03] still sounds multiple ways toxic to me, and recursively narcissistic as presented. [2025-09-16 15:18:29] here in the multiple sclerosis capital of the world, that'd not go down well. [2025-09-16 15:33:33] Digit: that's likely because you have an understanding very different from the intended meaning. Also things like ageism, gaslightning, toxicity are strong and serious issues. Dropping these words frivolously is dangerous and defeats their purpose. [2025-09-16 15:58:34] digging deeper into the gaslighting now, implying i'm the one using something serious frivilously!? jeez! projecting much? i know it's serious. that's why i raised these issues. take an introspection pill, guy. [2025-09-16 16:00:36] XD the irony. crazy hypocrisy. [2025-09-16 16:03:14] not crying wolf here. [2025-09-16 16:04:34] * kuzdra blinks [2025-09-16 16:32:19] besides it not even working logically, consider how you'd take it if someone used as an argument in a "word fight occasion": "what do you know? you are autistic!" [2025-09-16 16:36:33] It really got under your skin, didn't it? [2025-09-16 16:37:26] what would you know? you're autistic! [2025-09-16 16:38:28] I should've asked how old are you haha [2025-09-16 16:38:29] nah, what irks is the obtuse ignorance and inconsiderateness, doubling down, with tactics common to narcissists. narcissists are the worst. [2025-09-16 16:38:51] ageism's not really an improvement. [2025-09-16 16:42:24] FYI, I'll politely remove myself from the rest of this conversation. [2025-09-16 16:45:25] is that a heckler's veto now too? heh. even further down graham's hierarchy of disagreement than adhominem, off the bottom, into the extended version. [2025-09-16 16:47:09] man i love elizabeth shaw's vids. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mFy3If3IFww https://www.youtube.com/@Understandingnarcissism [2025-09-16 17:02:08] kuzdra: for what it's worth, I don't understand this either. It was clearly never intended to be used in a serious manner [2025-09-16 17:04:47] https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/5w5dni/the_universal_truth_of_ignorance_and_its_relation/ interesting stuff found while looking for the extended version of graham's hierarchy of disagreement. may also be relevant here. [2025-09-16 17:11:41] even if going to continually double-down on wilfully disregarding how ugly and prejudice-feeding and ilogical it is, even after it's pointed out and explained, to use that in an argument discredits you, with it being on the lower half of the debate pyramid, committing not just a logical fallacy, but a hostility. [2025-09-16 17:11:41] https://search.brave.com/images?q=graham%27s+hierarchy+of+disagreement+extended+version+heckler%27s+veto+violence&source=images (alas i'm failing to find the extended version) [2025-09-16 17:49:53] *** Topic for ##autism: Welcome to ##autism, a channel for autistic ppl, by autistic ppl! | Everyone is welcome, self-diagnosed or otherwise! | Black Lives Matter | A note on Asperger's: https://theautisticadvocate.com/2020/01/aspergers-syndrome-whats-in-a-name/ | Channel Guidelines: 1. This is not a dating channel. 2. Discussions about channel guidelines/rules are encouraged! | #genderdiversity ##disability [2025-09-16 17:49:53] *** ##autism: topic set by Soni!~quassel@autistic.space, 2022-03-01 12:35:34 [2025-09-16 17:49:53] *** Users on ##autism: Digitteknohippie jdza_lu w00f numeo_ camibohp athenaeryma kuzdra squeaktoy Halian m1dnight Takarias Digit henk Skadi x2s aruns pikhq ladybug lunacat81 gAy_Dragon katia jutty [2025-09-16 17:51:55] *** ##autism modes: +Snt [2025-09-16 17:51:55] *** ##autism was created on 2021-05-19 17:37:05 [2025-09-16 18:21:25] *** Your new nickname is Digit [2025-09-16 18:41:30] failed to find the specific extended version in mind, so i re-made it https://diaspora-fr.org/uploads/images/c1bfa70df2fefa9cf3d5.webp [2025-09-16 18:42:01] a prevening well spent. [2025-09-16 19:08:08] well, that escalated quickly [2025-09-16 19:08:49] Digit: in how far is it not working logically? [2025-09-16 19:09:24] or "in what sense"? I’m not a native speaker, sorry, if the phrasing is off [2025-09-16 19:17:36] myelenation does not correlate with knowledge. [2025-09-16 19:19:55] nor even with age, as per those with multiple sclerosis. [2025-09-16 19:21:33] also, even, in autism, according to some research. ... which makes it even more baffling a thing to suggest in here. [2025-09-16 19:22:22] so to try that line, is like shooting yourself in the foot half a dozen ways. black knight moment. [2025-09-16 19:23:49] ok, putting this aside for a moment: you get that it was not meant seriously, right? that it was a play at the argument some people bring "what do you know? when I learned this, you were still painting the bathroom walls with the shit from your diaper" or something of the like aiming at the other person’s age and suggesting they haven’t acquired enough experience and/or knowledge to be taken [2025-09-16 19:23:50] seriously on a subject and suggesting that the person who says this should be treated as an authority. [2025-09-16 19:28:02] yeah... but... that in no way validates it making sense. it's too obscure, ambiguous, self-harming. seriously or not. it does not even work as a joke, as snark, or anything but an insult to us all in here and many more. it's self defeating. [2025-09-16 19:34:23] frankly i'm kinda perplexed as to how this is not apparently readily understood. do i need to write another small essay's worth on it? i thought just the first line i retorted would have been enough. [2025-09-16 20:29:40] Greetings and salutations [2025-09-16 20:33:46] henk: thank you so much [2025-09-16 20:44:36] FWIW it was a quote from a podcast. I would have been happy to explain it, provide context, and reference the source shall someone asked for more information. However, this whole Digit's speech with the condesending tone (in my mind) really put me off. Calling me a guy, telling me to take a pill, assuming projection, bringing up hypocrisy, and tons of other hardly related yet strong concepts into this meant-to-be-a-joke -- it's just too much! [2025-09-16 20:45:26] what does FWIW mean? [2025-09-16 20:46:04] For what it's worth (iirc) [2025-09-16 20:46:05] ooooh [2025-09-16 20:46:05] It made me feel really bad and nervous here in real life. And unwelcome here on the channel. It's not the battle I pick to fight. [2025-09-16 20:46:17] You kids and your acyronymns XD [2025-09-16 20:46:52] kuzdra: I'm sorry. I should've said more. But I removed myself from the discussion. I'm exhausted by too much drama everywhere [2025-09-16 20:47:00] Insayne: I'm sorry, I'm approaching my 40s [2025-09-16 20:47:13] i was being facetious [2025-09-16 20:48:17] x2s: yeah, so did I (remove myself). It wasn't a discussion, really. I shouldn't have called it a discussion earlier. Screw drama, have enough of this horseshit in real life already )-: [2025-09-16 20:49:59] Insayne: I see. I mean, there are "kids"/modern abbreviations, sure, but I thought FWIW is pretty old and known in netspeak. [2025-09-16 20:50:26] ah [2025-09-16 20:52:21] Not in a good mood after the accident. My sense of humour is skewed towards zero ATM (at the moment 😜). You might know how it goes. [2025-09-16 20:53:44] Anyroad... I'm gonna sod off from these confusing interwebs for now. You take care and be excellent to each other, all right? Cheers! [2025-09-16 20:54:22] okay, take care [2025-09-16 20:59:38] so , what's new? [2025-09-16 21:00:35] not me. [2025-09-16 21:00:37] :D [2025-09-16 21:01:22] XD [2025-09-16 21:03:17] also my pondering about life isn't new either. [2025-09-16 21:05:59] ah [2025-09-16 21:06:03] and that is? [2025-09-16 21:09:21] A very long story. And I try to keep my stories short :) [2025-09-16 21:09:48] It's basically the age old question about: What do I want to do? Is this really it? Is there some place better? [2025-09-16 21:10:42] And missing the information filters in the brain - that make life for other people so much easier - doesn't help either. [2025-09-16 21:10:53] existential crisis? [2025-09-16 21:10:58] All the time [2025-09-16 21:11:03] ah [2025-09-16 21:11:28] I had one of those briefly, after watching Infinity Pool [2025-09-16 21:13:26] Well, since the pandemic I have finally build up some money again. But I need this money for when I get old. And I'm struggling getting new projects to earn more money, since the general econimic perspective looks like a recession [2025-09-16 21:14:32] As a solo freelancer I'm the first to notice. So yeah. What to do next? Is this really what I want to do... [2025-09-16 21:15:19] yeah [2025-09-16 21:16:15] freelancing as? [2025-09-16 21:17:01] developer for C/C++ and mostly the qt framework, but I've worked with so many other things as well already [2025-09-16 21:17:32] oh nice [2025-09-16 21:17:41] i am more "visual" myself [2025-09-16 21:18:21] oh, I like to build UIs. It's fun in a way [2025-09-16 21:19:15] but these days everyone thinks: yes, let's do this in JavaScript. If it's reasonable or not... [2025-09-16 21:21:49] ah yeah [2025-09-16 21:23:30] also the problem is that the industry has stopped new developments overall [2025-09-16 21:25:05] yeah :( [2025-09-16 21:25:18] AI :/ [2025-09-16 21:28:37] well, I'm from Germany. Lots and lots of old people will retire in the next ten years. I think it's around a fourth of the whole workforce [2025-09-16 21:29:10] (but don't quote me on that) [2025-09-16 21:30:56] And right now we are pumping lots and lots of taxes already into the retirement system. So taxes are high and will get even higher, people have less money therefore, don't buy things, whole economic goes down. [2025-09-16 21:31:23] true [2025-09-16 21:31:53] That's also why I'm pondering. Will it get better some day? Should I move somewhere? (which is hard) [2025-09-16 21:31:55] etc. [2025-09-16 21:32:08] i see [2025-09-16 21:36:01] Digit: well, depending on how long that essay would be, I might read it. because I’m similarly perplexed by your reaction, TBH. it seemed kinda oversensitive to me. to me it kinda does make sense: both knowledge and wisdom usually correlate very highly with age, right? and myelination is a process that is just very rapid until it slows down in early adulthood. I don’t see what’s not working [2025-09-16 21:36:01] about it as a fancy/funny/oddly specific/whatever you want to call it way of calling someone "a young pisser who doesn’t know anything". yes, it definitely is obscure but there’s nothing wrong with that per se. yes, it might be ambiguous, that’s often the case with this kind of jokes. I don’t see how it’s self-harming, though. for me, it kinda did work as a joke. but humour is very [2025-09-16 21:36:02] subjective, so it’s fine if you don’t find it funny. I don’t think it was meant as a snark. I don’t feel insulted and don’t yet see why I should feel or why you do, really. I could imagine that I might feel different about it were I affected by MS and knew that myelination was relevant to MS but not that myelination is a process that’s related to age as mentioned earlier. and I don’t [2025-09-16 21:36:02] understand what you mean with self defeating. [2025-09-16 23:05:55] kuzdra: none of that was supposed to make you feel bad. was just logical helpful raising of issues and bringing more info to your attention. the reaction to it made me feel bad too, blew my mind how hostile the reception was to it. dont kill the messanger nor yourself by the message. was just a friendly warning not to shoot yourself in the foot. and not to shoot all us [autistics] by it too. and who else get shot by it [Multiple [2025-09-16 23:05:55] Sclerosis sufferers]. [and the ageism thing]. I thought this was a safe place to bluntly [as oft typical for many autistics] speak logically. none of it was intended as a rejection of you. intended as just a friendly cue to see what else about that. would have been nice to explore it, rather than just hit a stubborn wall of rejection and obtuse inconsideration of the ideas and alternative perspectives and new information. [2025-09-16 23:08:28] henk: given what you've said, i'm not sure how to make what i've said clear to you. i'd basically just be repeating what was said in likely futility. it'd be more exhausting than i have spoons available just now. ... maybe later. [2025-09-17 00:38:36] *** Insayne (~antisane@user/Insayne) is now known as DayBelongsToDoom [2025-09-17 01:14:51] *** Fordadr (~Fordadr@user/Fordadr) is now known as Fordaro [2025-09-17 07:51:39] * Digit plans to dose up on https://www.youtube.com/@orionkelly/videos for autism validation vibes. [2025-09-17 08:17:28] Digit: yeah, I can get that. no worries and thanks for being so clear about it. take care of yourself and your spoons! [2025-09-18 09:42:24] \o/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug9jhtUr6KI :) [2025-09-18 12:32:58] https://app.sesame.com/ -- impressive and uncanny/creepy at the same time. [2025-09-18 12:45:04] kuzdra: yes, but I don't like it when my computer speaks to me... [2025-09-18 12:47:45] only my own reminder crons, or when playing videos. [2025-09-18 15:37:39] *** Liberamymadness (~antisane@user/Insayne) is now known as Insayne [2025-09-18 16:04:05] *** w00f_ (~w00f@user/w00f) is now known as w00f [2025-09-19 01:36:53] Greetings and salutations [2025-09-19 12:35:49] *** thanosengine (~eden@user/thanosengine) is now known as eden [2025-09-19 12:38:45] *** A_Dragon (A_D@libera/staff/dragon) is now known as gAy_Dragon [2025-09-19 13:00:12] *** w00f_ (~w00f@user/w00f) is now known as w00f [2025-09-20 00:36:04] *** Fordadr (~Fordadr@user/Fordadr) is now known as Fordaro [2025-09-20 03:43:11] *** Insayne (~antisane@user/Insayne) is now known as PunkRocker [2025-09-20 05:17:50] *** Insayne (~antisane@user/Insayne) is now known as PunkRocker [2025-09-20 13:10:18] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkxt5njHtrw reminds of that^ earlier communication mismatch when i tried point out the self defeating nature of trying use myelenation insufficiency as an adhominem to win arguments by (since, for one point among several, we autistics have that very thing XD) [2025-09-20 13:11:46] ( and if i failed to offer any such link in the heat of the moment, there's abundant results on that: https://www.webcrawler.com/serp?q=autism+myelin ) [2025-09-20 14:03:25] *** Topic for ##autism: Welcome to ##autism, a channel for autistic ppl, by autistic ppl! | Everyone is welcome, self-diagnosed or otherwise! | Black Lives Matter | A note on Asperger's: https://theautisticadvocate.com/2020/01/aspergers-syndrome-whats-in-a-name/ | Channel Guidelines: 1. This is not a dating channel. 2. Discussions about channel guidelines/rules are encouraged! | #genderdiversity ##disability [2025-09-20 14:03:25] *** ##autism: topic set by Soni!~quassel@autistic.space, 2022-03-01 12:35:34 [2025-09-20 14:03:25] *** Users on ##autism: Digit w00f aruns Insayne jutty yayakame Takarias athenaeryma jdza_lu pikhq camibohp gAy_Dragon ladybug lunacat81 katia x2s Skadi henk Halian squeaktoy kuzdra numeo m1dnight [2025-09-20 14:05:30] *** ##autism modes: +Snt [2025-09-20 14:05:30] *** ##autism was created on 2021-05-19 17:37:05 [2025-09-20 14:09:00] Before you assume, try this crazy method called asking. [2025-09-20 15:15:40] still passive-aggressively not entertaining the information? [2025-09-20 15:16:32] XD how about you ask. what are you assuming, and not asking? where's your curiosity? [2025-09-20 15:19:17] what would you have had me ask? [2025-09-20 20:30:41] I still don’t get what the problem really is but I think neither of you are doing anything constructive to get the conflict resolved and that’s annoying me … [2025-09-20 20:56:16] that link wasnt constructive? i'm stumped as to how this isnt landing. evokes notions of attachment led social domination mode blocking epistemic mode. and so that disuades trying. [2025-09-20 20:56:49] rly wish the bad vibes could be got rid of. [2025-09-20 21:48:02] Hey people. [2025-09-20 21:48:29] does anyone else here get an error when they try to connect to Chatautism site [2025-09-20 21:58:28] anyone here also like learning languages [2025-09-20 21:58:41] I know some basic Japanese and Esperanto. [2025-09-20 21:59:02] and am learning some Arabic, too. [2025-09-20 21:59:38] I like the way hiragana and arabic have a cursive style script. [2025-09-20 22:40:31] Has anyone here read the manga or seen the movie Ａcorn House [2025-09-20 22:40:52] It is about how children with Autism learn to live. [2025-09-20 22:55:26] Digit: IMHO no, since it’s missing the point: it was not meant seriously. [2025-09-20 22:56:53] hi [2025-09-20 22:57:13] Hi5: hi [2025-09-20 22:57:17] Hi5: saluton [2025-09-20 22:57:29] Saluton [2025-09-20 22:58:03] I like documentary movies. [2025-09-20 22:58:20] I once read a manga about a kid with autism. [2025-09-20 22:58:27] but i don't remember the title of it. [2025-09-20 22:58:39] something Hikaru. [2025-09-20 22:59:44] what are people doing tomorrow? [2025-09-20 23:00:45] For me I'm going to congregation service. then a vegan lunch, and later seeing a movie. [2025-09-20 23:01:57] Hi5: finally I get a chance to catch you here (-: I saw you coming here several times while I was asleep. I just wanted to say that here are people from all kinds of timezones, so you don't an impression that the channel is dead [2025-09-20 23:02:50] Also, it's IRC, so many people run their clients 24/7 while not necessarily attending to the messages 24/7. Or just lurking too [2025-09-20 23:03:24] I read an English fiction novel about a boy with autism, "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" [2025-09-20 23:03:31] Hi5, i am going to the autumn market with mother and a friend tomorrow. [2025-09-20 23:04:30] oh ok [2025-09-20 23:04:42] thanks for letting me know [2025-09-20 23:04:45] cool [2025-09-20 23:04:59] is it like an autumn celebration? [2025-09-20 23:06:15] Hi5, no it's a market [2025-09-20 23:06:47] stands with crafts, produce, all sorts of crap [2025-09-20 23:07:34] henk: about that, yeah, sorry. I was thinking out loud and it wasn't addressed at anyone in particular. [2025-09-20 23:10:01] I am on the hiki app and there are some muslims on there too. [2025-09-20 23:10:22] which i find interesting because I practice the faith. [2025-09-20 23:12:36] henk: I prefer to not see that situation as a conflict: I don't understand what Digit is saying most of the time; and I have no skin in the game. Thus I don't want to participate and make a mountain out of a molehill. I agree to disagree and I want to leave it behind for once and for good. [2025-09-20 23:13:35] Huh, Hiki -- "Friendship & love for the Autistic, ADHD, and all Neurodivergent community". I used to dream about a platform like that. [2025-09-20 23:15:07] I need to get that app. [2025-09-20 23:16:17] It's probably terribly dead up here [2025-09-20 23:18:13] I like how it has many groups on it [2025-09-20 23:18:44] I used to be on chatautism. but for some reason [2025-09-20 23:18:58] it is giving me an error that it can't reach the server [2025-09-20 23:19:33] not sure if anyone else here is also getting that message [2025-09-20 23:19:48] I looked chatautism up and if I found the right one, it's just a web IRC client to some channel... on a dedicated network/server, I guess? [2025-09-20 23:20:38] yes [2025-09-20 23:20:52] but for some reason i can't connect to it [2025-09-20 23:21:46] Works for me *shrug* [2025-09-20 23:22:27] Ah yes, it's a small dedicated network. [2025-09-20 23:23:07] chatautism.com, that is [2025-09-20 23:24:21] i joined chatautism [2025-09-20 23:24:59] oh ok [2025-09-20 23:25:02] hmm [2025-09-20 23:27:52] for some reason I can't zoom in to see the chats? [2025-09-20 23:28:00] weird [2025-09-20 23:31:00] oh well [2025-09-20 23:34:28] Hi5: I believe, you are connected from a web browser, aren't you? There are numerous desktop and mobile IRC clients that you can use to connect here (or presumably on chatautism too). Arguably they are better then web clients too [2025-09-20 23:35:18] yes that is true [2025-09-20 23:35:26] ok i will try those then [2025-09-20 23:35:28] thanks [2025-09-20 23:36:10] All right. I see I can't type and spell properly any more. Have a nice weekend, o7 [2025-09-21 00:25:42] *** Topic for ##autism: Welcome to ##autism, a channel for autistic ppl, by autistic ppl! | Everyone is welcome, self-diagnosed or otherwise! | Black Lives Matter | A note on Asperger's: https://theautisticadvocate.com/2020/01/aspergers-syndrome-whats-in-a-name/ | Channel Guidelines: 1. This is not a dating channel. 2. Discussions about channel guidelines/rules are encouraged! | #genderdiversity ##disability [2025-09-21 00:25:42] *** ##autism: topic set by Soni!~quassel@autistic.space, 2022-03-01 12:35:34 [2025-09-21 00:25:42] *** Users on ##autism: Digitteknohippie jultty aruns yayakame m1dnight_ w00f Takarias athenaeryma jdza_lu pikhq camibohp gAy_Dragon numeo kuzdra squeaktoy Halian henk Skadi x2s katia lunacat81 ladybug [2025-09-21 00:29:27] *** ##autism modes: +Snt [2025-09-21 00:29:28] *** ##autism was created on 2021-05-19 17:37:05 [2025-09-21 01:01:32] *** Fordadr (~Fordadr@user/Fordadr) is now known as Fordaro [2025-09-21 02:21:19] *** Fordadr (~Fordadr@user/Fordadr) is now known as Fordaro [2025-09-21 07:52:41] *** Your new nickname is Digit [2025-09-21 08:41:05] henk: how does whether it was meant seriously or not matter? it still does not work in the manner suggested. nor even would the manner suggested even be a good thing to do (being on the 2nd bottom wrung of graham's hierarchy of disagreement ~ and thus no way to win "word fight"), and further farcically flawed since it shoots the autistic user of it in the foot (see again the research on low myelination in autism). what point is [2025-09-21 08:41:05] being missed? since you assert i'm missing the point, what was the point then, in this?: [2025-09-16 14:42:14] I've just learnt a new argument for a word fight occasion: What do you know? You are not even completely myelinated yet! [2025-09-21 08:47:53] even outside the ableism and myelination being no worthy corelate with age, myelination's no worthy correlate with knowledge. i'm accused of missing the point, and yet, i see no sign my points are being acknowledged, and even people saying they do not understand what i'm saying, even accompanied by closing-the-argument (off the bottom of graham's hierarchy of disagreement), and even inocence claims in hypocrisy (which has me suspect [2025-09-21 08:47:53] trolling/narcissistic fueling), further the incredibility i'm attempting to dismantle to resolve this. [2025-09-21 08:52:46] innocence in hypocrisy, such as: "[2025-09-20 14:09:00] Before you assume, try this crazy method called asking."... while you point your subtextually accusatory advisory finger, check those three fingers pointing back. ... and note i was asking. note my first two lines responding to that were questions. [2025-09-21 08:53:49] brandolini's law all over this, extended, due to the evasiveness and obtuseness and hostility. XD [2025-09-21 08:55:18] that's about all the spoons i've got for this now. happy to review any responses later. would love to see a "oh! now i get it. we're all under myelinated in here. oops." type comment. or even any question to further the clarification and resolution. [2025-09-21 09:14:23] Digit: that it’s a joke!! something said in a joke doesn’t work? You might be on to something there! but are you really the guy who responds to a joke like "a horse goes into the bar. the bartender asks »why the long face?«" with: »but that doesn’t make sense because horses don’t go into bars! and they can’t understand what the bartender asks so it doesn’t make sense that the [2025-09-21 09:14:23] bartender asks the horse anything.«? if you are just ignoring that something isn’t meant seriously and take it seriously anyway, you are setting yourself up for a lot of futile and pointless arguing IMHO … [2025-09-21 09:16:21] and that’s why noone is really arguing against you: because it’s a joke. it was not meant seriously, so why would anyone argue against it not making sense? it’s obviously not meant to make sense, it’s meant to provoke a snort or sharp exhale from the nose or a chuckle or even a laugh … [2025-09-21 09:17:53] if it was meant seriously, you’d probably be right about everything but at least I don’t see the point of getting into that discussion. at least as long as you seem to act about it as if it really was serious and don’t take this a bit lighter (: [2025-09-21 09:43:19] but it does not even work as a joke. where's the humour? it seems more like an ad-hominem attack. and one which attacks us. and in ignorance. joke or not, it's ageist and ableist (wittingly or not). see what i'm saying when i ask what does it matter if serious or not? and even if it's a joke, that anyone would even attempt such a line (which did not seem to be the case, as presented), it's still then suffering poe's law. as a [2025-09-21 09:43:19] "joke", the joke's on the autistic user of the line (which remains a point seemingly missed entirely still so far). seems a bit dismissive and invalidating to suggest to take the ableism lightly. and again, how does it matter to the points i've raised whether it was serious or not? in what way does that refute what i'm saying? the point (just the one?) is to ensure a fellow autistic is not going to go forth unwittingly shooting [2025-09-21 09:43:19] themselves in the foot, thinking they're winning a "word fight". the point is socratic inquiry. the point is to lift ourselves from the bottom half of graham's hierarchy of disagreement (where ad-hominems are) to improve resolving disagreements, rather than escalating disagreements and bad vibes. the point is to raise awareness of, and prevent ableism and the normalisation of ableism. the point is to raise awareness of, and prevent [2025-09-21 09:43:19] ageism and the normalisation of ableism. the point is to ... is any of this landing? or, all still being dismissed? [2025-09-21 09:54:45] as I said: any serious discussion of this is futile as it is not serious itself. so no, none of this "is landing" of course. it’s like discussing "what’s the point of football? nothing is getting accomplished! why do they do it? and it’s offensive against people in a wheelchair! they are excluded from this activity! that’s ableist". the only reaction this will provoke is "dude wtf?" but [2025-09-21 09:54:45] certainly no serious discussion because really: wtf? [2025-09-21 09:55:24] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2yECccrsC0 [2025-09-21 09:55:48] fallacious reasoning there. your reductio absurdism is non-sequitor. [2025-09-21 09:56:26] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42on5SJpfys [2025-09-21 09:56:45] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_rrPlup7s [2025-09-21 09:57:07] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalZVkMOkR0 [2025-09-21 09:57:22] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuW0Qm_gCR8 [2025-09-21 09:57:54] well, ok, have fun being offended, I give up (: [2025-09-21 09:58:10] thanks for the further red flags. [2025-09-21 10:02:26] sorry, don’t have time for this right now, maybe later but TBH probably not. you seem to _want_ to feel offended and don’t seem to understand that funny things might sometimes be offensive and usually don’t make any sense and that it was _obviously_ not meant seriously for most people here. and who am I to stop you (: [2025-09-21 10:04:19] i'm not offended. it's just logic. [2025-09-21 10:06:35] and that still in no way explains why it being a joke matters at all. let alone explains how it works as a joke. obtuse reitteration gets us no further. asserting obviousness, when it's obviously not, again, strikes as a gaslighting tactic. [2025-09-21 10:10:30] big big comedy fan here. avid watcher of not just comedy, but "comedy without errors", where comedy is analysed. so i'm keen to hear ()as asked and not yet answered) how the joke works, ~ rather than dismissive gaslighting and contradiction and ad-hominem. ... big fan of philosophy and epistemology too, see? so maybe we can workshop the joke to be better. or at least engage in the socratic enquiry. [2025-09-21 10:11:46] psychology too. excellent study case here. heh. [2025-09-21 10:28:45] Clearly this does not work as a productive discourse. Let's drop it and move on, shall we? There are better ways to invest our spoons. [2025-09-21 11:28:43] again, closing the argument. https://diaspora-fr.org/uploads/images/bae37baba59d3da7598c.webp there's ample room further up for this being productive. [2025-09-21 11:34:40] a little non-attachment and avoiding self fulfilling prophecies goes a long way. [2025-09-21 11:35:50] t'would have only been one spoon, if the idea were entertained from the start, rather than expending all these spoons on fighting it. [2025-09-21 13:38:38] Digit: the joke is "some people seem to think that saying someone isn’t old enough to participate in a discussion is a valid argument. I found an obscure way of basically expressing the same absurd argument and others might like how pointlessly roundabout and obscure it is while remaining invalid and stupid." it’s not about accuracy. it’s about logic in the sense that it makes fun of the [2025-09-21 13:38:38] invalid argument "appeal to age" and that any other way of saying it might make it sound more scientifically founded but it’s still kinda the same invalid argument that. if you tell a story about a horse going into the bar and being asked about it’s long face and mean it seriously, I’m going to question your sanity. as a joke, it’s a completely different matter. so whether something or not [2025-09-21 13:38:39] is (said as) a joke makes a whole lot of difference. I have no idea what further explanation that needs, other than you arguing in bad faith. [2025-09-21 13:41:29] yes, such discussions are only one spoon, if the other party would just be willing to immediately accept my standpoint!!p!! dammit, it could be so simple … do you see how this doesn’t work? or works both ways? [2025-09-21 13:42:33] and the initial statement was not at all made in your direction. so this is not about you, you being gaslighted, you being humiliated, you being insulted, or anything about you. [2025-09-21 14:25:58] nope. still does not work. still does not address my points. still repeats the same fallacy, and adds more. but thanks for at least attempting to explain. falls exhaustingly short though. [2025-09-21 14:34:21] so much strawman to unpick in that. [2025-09-21 16:54:34] Digit: your points are based on incorrect assumptions. You label people here and throw around highbrow terminology. That is not conducive to the conversation. You pretent to be open to hear explanations, yet shut it off with another claim or accusation of some sort. henk has explain to you the joke very well and multiple times coming from different angles, kudos to him for patience. If it doesn't work for you, then it's on you. [2025-09-21 16:54:35] I'm not sure whether you are just trolling at this point or your mind is really so inpenetrable. Either way, I find your conduct alientating and not worth engaging with. If you suspended your believes and assumption for a moment, I believe you could understand what you are told. The horse can be brought to the river, but one can't make it drink. No one can make you understand, but you. [2025-09-21 16:54:35] It's totally fine if you find this joke a terrible joke, a rude joke, an offensive joke, or whatever. It's still a joke. Take it or leave it. [2025-09-21 16:56:10] And if you are keen on really trying to understand it, bring your arguments and this whole conversation to the original author of the joke themselves. It was merely a quote, and taken out of a broad context. None of us is the author, hence there is no point in arguing with you. [2025-09-21 18:07:40] On an unrelated, new note: here is a new joke, about taking things too literally -- https://0x0.st/KAXA.jpeg [2025-09-21 18:46:09] kuzdra: hehehe [2025-09-21 18:48:53] https://0x0.st/KAXy.mp3 -- and this is just *one* of the kinds of noises that my kind neighbours are treating me with. This one happens 3--4 times a day, every day. And it's not just sound -- it's vibration that my headphones can't help with. (I feel it with my butt and feet.) 😭 [2025-09-21 18:49:20] thanks for responding. "label people here"? where did i do that? when i said we're autistics? either way, that's not responding to the substance. "highbrow terminology"? responding to tone, not to substance. "You pretent to be open to hear explanations, yet shut it off with another claim or accusation of some sort." a refutation is not shuting off. accusation? where? i thought i only proposed plausible explanations. " henk [2025-09-21 18:49:20] has explain to you the joke very well and multiple times coming from different angles" very well!? that's a better joke. "If it doesn't work for you, then it's on you." again seems like closing the argument, gaslighting, invalidation, and capping begging the question when the premise has not been proven. "I'm not sure whether you are just trolling at this point" ME!? are you kidding!? you were the one who quipped "I've just [2025-09-21 18:49:20] learnt a new argument for a word fight occasion: What do you know? You are not even completely myelinated yet!" in a chan of autists! not to mention all the evasiveness and deflection and closing the argument since. " Either way, I find your conduct alientating and not worth engaging with." because what would i know because my brain's insufficiently myelinated being an autistic? sounds like another closing the argument capping a [2025-09-21 18:49:20] responding to tone. how would you suggest you be spoken to to not be alienating? ~ and it's MY mind that's "impenetrable"? again, "when you point your finger, three fingers point back" spring to mind. " If you suspended your believes " i advocate non-belief. neither belief nor disbelief. if i find a belief, i attempt to excorcise it. typically with the socratic method and ruthless heavy introspection. if you perceive a belief [2025-09-21 18:49:20] of mine, please do point it out, and even engage in the socratic method to help me find my ignorance. i have several quips about ignorance btw, such as "the ignorance that dies is not you" (^ as hinted at with mention of enlightened non-attachment), and "if ignorance is bliss, give me agony" (a poetic expression of how severe the folly of ignorance is). "It's totally fine if you find this joke a terrible joke, a rude joke, an [2025-09-21 18:49:20] offensive joke, or whatever. It's still a joke. Take it or leave it." so you're saying you were joking when you said "I've just learnt a new argument for a word fight occasion: What do you know? You are not even completely myelinated yet!" and " It's only to suggested that neurons in the brain are not completely myelianted until the 3rd decade of life. In other words, the brain development is not technically complete." being ageist [2025-09-21 18:49:20] and ableist (even against (presumably, since you're in here) your own neurotype), does not matter, and isnt really an argument you ever really intend to use? can you see how this falls foul of poe's law? "And if you are keen on really trying to understand it, bring your arguments and this whole conversation to the original author of the joke themselves. It was merely a quote, and taken out of a broad context." do share. otherwise [2025-09-21 18:49:20] that's setting up an impossible demand. and still, the words you used to share it were like you thought that was a good idea. and confusingly, evaded clarification, doubled down on it, and attempted to suppress discussing it and resolving the issue. "None of us is the author, hence there is no point in arguing with you." i dont follow that logic. neither valid nor sound. that all strikes me as continued evasiveness, not yet [2025-09-21 18:49:20] clarifying the matter. but maybe you can offer something yet, that wont extend this exercise in cunningham's law and brandolini's law. [2025-09-21 18:50:38] I'm not gonna read that, sorry Digit [2025-09-21 18:55:04] well i'll never be letting this go then. if you had read that, you may know what folly that is. [2025-09-21 18:58:12] Sorry Digit, suit yourself. ommmmmmmmm ========= ^ paste of conversation at time of analysis ^ ============= ===================================================================== ===================================================================== ===================================================================== ===================================================================== Always quite alarming when things escalate so wrong. Worth keeping a record, to learn from, more than any potential future necessity for a use in a lawful or legal case. But even then. To my recollection, this is the first time I have had one of what i call a "post of horror", on irc. At least to the point I felt the need to make a record of it. Typically these occur in the fediverse. And there I would simply tag a limited post of mine that generally only I can see, with a hashtag of #postsofhorror. And we must face the horror. That's how we mend these things. Interesting that both the two LLMs I had analyse the conversation both seemed to acknowledge I was logically correct for the most part. I'm a mite dismayed that my asides questioning / proposing the idea that I may be getting gaslit by narcissists, and mentioning how very obtuse and evasive I found the responses were distractingly woven in and contributed to the failures that turned it into a post of horror. Genuinely this could have gone WAY better, had the initial trajectory not been so dismissive and evasive; if the idea had been entertained, and the due introspection and acknowledgement occurred. But still, seeing the follies and fallacies of others in no way negates my need to introspect on my own "conduct" (ew, horrible word... smacks as a a bit like it's from the behaviourist schools of psychology, and all their inconsiderate authoritarianism. Again, very invalidating and from a "materialist" externalising locus of regulation, just like a narcissist, and a narcissistic psychopathic system, would do. So my concerns are none abaited. Only further validated. Not merely by the LLM's analysises, but by their continued evasiveness and hard ignorance, and projecting, and gaslighting, deflections, strawmanning and apparent triangulation. ... The thing is... autistics are more vulnerable to narcissists than non-autistics, in general. And so, a place that should be a safe space for autistics seems to have brought narcissists looking for an easy feed. And I am so done, hard done, finished, full-up, with narcissists. In this phase of my healing and radical acceptance, after my 43 years of abuse by a covert/community narcissist, several years of which were abject blackmail, slavery, torture, and defrauding, enduring at its worst, all-over level seven pain (even my finger nails and hair... the pain was everywhere, and I do not hyperbolise the pain scale) for solid months, from all the psychelogical torture, the triple time slavery without breaks and the disrupted sleep while at my worst health, and they future faked me a promise of going through that for a house that would fit my needs, to which they then inverted every key design aspect, insisting i be put in a torture box for the rest of my life instead. So when I say I am HARD DONE with narcissists, and that narcissists are the worst, it's not without humungously significant reason. Hence why I've now a hair trigger for them. My narcissism-radar is pinging LOUD, now. Many psychologists say to disengage, go no contact, they wont change. Sure. But that does not remedy the situation. Better to at least raise awareness for others. I will gladly proceed. "It must be a trap." "Then why are you still going??!?" "I want to find out what kind of a trap it is." -- from the movie "Akira", that has stuck with me since childhood. "Most violent pacifist I know" a very fair characterisation of me from the guy who's known me the longest. You see, as I said at the end there, I'll never let this go. Much akin to my response to my torturers when they insisted I just forget, and stop thinking about what they did to me. No. I'll remember for as long as eternity, as best I can. No point obeying the torturers to let them get away with it. Samsquanch-Do! Don't let the bastards grind you down. "Just a joke", is the escape clause of the narcissist, after their abuse of you. Do not fall for sanctimonious spurious presentation of plausibility, its airs of caring; of peacekeeping; of innocence. Narcissists are the worst. They hide... "Villains who twirl their moustaches are easy to spot, but those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well cammoflaged." -- Picard. ==================================================================== the day after: in review, i'm reminded of the ss enconium from red dwarf, with what happens when criticism is not received and considered epistemically; when criticism is reacted to with fear and limbic reflex (and "social domination mode"), the survival mode obliterating consideration and introspection, highlighting how the opportunity for growth, clarification, or salvation, was lost due to the nature of the defensive maneuvers and ego attachment, leading to all kinds of extended callousness & inconsiderateness, deflection, ad-hominem, hypocrisy & projection, tone-policing, invalidation & dismissal, victim mentality & poor-me drama, escalation, framing criticism as hostility, bad faith accusations, suppression (e.g., heckler's veto, closing discussion, stonewalling/silent-treatment), blame shifting & accountability evasion, trivialisation/minimisation, smearing with unsubstantiated accusations, gaslighting, character assassination, narcissistic injury & unepistemic limbic-reactivity, persecutor reversal, discourteous inequitable engagement & lack of reciprocation, context withholding, shifting responsibility, wilful ignorance, ... instead of being grateful for the friendly warning that your ship is on a doomed trajectory needing steering away from.